overfiltering?

[GMAN]

  Does anyone think it is such a thing?If so or not what filters would cause this      Just thought this part of site needed a new thread..

[Mark Stone]

Hi Gman, how've you been? I think [i]a lot[/i] of our forum needs new threads, sometimes it seems a little under-used. It's a shame when there are people like you around to give good advice and discussion!

My thoughts are that an aquarium is "overfiltered" when two things (one or both) happen: first, when the filtration (or, rather, the way we maintain it) actually destroys the beneficial bacteria an aquarium needs to remain healthy. A silly example would be washing off a bio-wheel regularly, rendering it useless. Secondly, if there's so much filtration and a tiny bio-load (like a pair of huge canisters and one guppy in a small tank) that the nitrifying bacteria doesn't have a chance to thrive because of the lack of waste.

Another thought relates to currents -- some species, like male Bettas, Guppies, heavily finned Mollies, etc. might be overstressed by a lot of current in their tanks.

Just some thoughts -- Mark

[GMAN]

Yea mark good points. I finally went and bought an emp 400 ,came in yesterday .I already have the 280.  Seems like a good filter so far but only had it 1 day  lol. The 280 emp has been doing real well.. What i like about the biowheels is that when you clean the filter media things you dont disturb the bacteria and dont really need to use dechlorinater to wash out media,cause most is supposed to be in the wheels. All the filters i have,are nice filters i think i have just about every kind on market [AC,EMP., aquatech,penguin,eheim,rena,even a few no name brands].They all work gtreat if you maintain them properly..  Just rambling on someone tell me to shut up....  LOL

[Mark Stone]

Well, you know me -- I've always been a real Aquaria, Inc fan, I've got Magnums and Penguins coming out of my ears. However, I don't like the Emp 400 at all -- too complicated and too many mechanical noises, and it doesn't pre-filter the water that it sprays on the biowheels! Me, I'll take the Penguin 350 instead -- simpler in design, much quieter, but you still get the two big biowheels -- and the water is pre-filtered before it gets to the wheel. Looking at these two units, I don't understand how they can be made by the same people -- M

[Kenshin_Himura]

[quote="Mark Stone "]
Well, you know me -- I've always been a real Aquaria, Inc fan, I've got Magnums and Penguins coming out of my ears. However, I don't like the Emp 400 at all -- too complicated and too many mechanical noises, and it doesn't pre-filter the water that it sprays on the biowheels! Me, I'll take the Penguin 350 instead -- simpler in design, much quieter, but you still get the two big biowheels -- and the water is pre-filtered before it gets to the wheel. Looking at these two units, I don't understand how they can be made by the same people -- M
[/quote]


I don't think I understand ...  doesn't the water get sucked up and then pushed down through the bottom of the intake, making it go through your filter media first, then through the bio-wheels?  I have the Emporer 400, and that is how I perceive it to work, but admit I may not see it correctly, and the Penguin 330, though not having bio-wheels, doesn't seem to be much different in intake tube, impeller, and water flow design ...  and I can add bio-wheels to it.  Also, to me, the 400 doesn't make that much noise.  I hear my air pump and the water noise more than the filter itself.  If I am standing next to it I hear the bio-wheels spinning, and a slight hum from the impeller, but not loud by any means.  I never had a canister, but from what I have read they are silent and would make the 400 sound quite loud in comparison   

As far as being on-topic, I agree with Mark, if you have a small fish (single 1-3" Oscar), and two Emporer 400s or two Fluval 405s (or both) ...  you might be overdoing it.  I am still just running my one Emperor 400 because it has so much filtration (two sponges, two bio-wheels, two ceramic media bags, two ceramic media bags cut open and put into the two gray container things) and my tests come out right, I think the second will be overkill for a little bit longer.  I was going to put on a Penguin 330 as a secondary, but may go with a AquaClear 110, because I plan on buying a 96 gallon tank and can just switch everything over when the finances equal my eyes.  I figure 900 gph is close enough to the 10x flow rate recommended for HOBs, especially when gravel and decor come into play.

I think if you are fully stocked, it would be hard to over-filter.  Overstocked, it may be nigh impossible to over-filter.  But, if you are the type that don't like a lot of fish and also like big tanks, and like to go overboard on supplies, you might run into over-filtration.  I know when I get the 96, I will be just about right.  If I put a Jack Dempsey in the 55, it would be just about right.  But if I went for that 210 at the LFS, I would be in heaven, but broke ...  in fact, I want one bigger than that now 

[Mark Stone]

[quote]I don't think I understand ...  doesn't the water get sucked up and then pushed down through the bottom of the intake, making it go through your filter media first, then through the bio-wheels?[/quote]On the Penguins, the water goes through the filter element and then drives the wheels -- but on your Emp400 water is pumped through spray bars directly to the wheels bypassing the filter element, in addition to the water coming through the filter element.[quote]I never had a canister, but from what I have read they are silent and would make the 400 sound quite loud in comparison[/quote]That's probably what I mean -- I'm used to hearing nothing at all except the slight splash of the water.

[Kenshin_Himura]

I had a brain stutter.  I have stopped the flow through those spray bars before, but for some reason I was picturing the overflow spinning them instead while I was writing    I feel a bit silly now 

I have never owned a canister, so I never had the pleasure of completely silent filtration.  I kind of like the water noise, it is like those waterfall things people buy.  But the air pump can be a tad bit annoying at times, since my tank is in my bedroom.  One day I will have to splurge on one of those fancy canisters and find a better air pump. 

Like I said, I plan to have two HOBs on the 96, but, when I get a JD to put in the 55, I might get a canister for the 96 and move one  of those HOBs back to the 55, then the possibly the other HOB once the canister has BB.  Talk about an over-filtered tank!!!  900 gph on a 55, about 17x flow rate.

[Battyone]

[quote]A silly example would be washing off a bio-wheel regularly, rendering it useless. [/quote]

I just recently started doing tank work for my Aunt.  She (To this very day) argues that she needs to clean all of her filter media, and actually THREW AWAY her bio wheel.  On top of her "Every month or two" water changes...I wasn't surprised to find very high (8.0 PPM+) Amo, and I was only shocked that the fish are somehow still alive.  I've already moved the fish out of that tank, and I am starting to cycle her new filter. 

Just had to mention that, since its exactly what happened! (well, until she threw away the bio wheel anyway)