NEW TO CICHLIDS-NEED SERIOUS HELP!!!!

[fightoffURdemons]

Hello, as I said Im new to this forum and new to the "cichlid hobby" but Ive already fallen in love with the few Malawi Cichlids that I have, and no matter how many times I search the net, I cannot find any solid answers to the problems I am having. First off, I really am not too sure of exactly what kind of cichlids I have, but there are 5 of them, all males I think, in a 20 gal upright and somewhere along acquiring these 5 friends, I must have also acquired some sort of sickness, because no matter what I do, one or all of them start showing signs of disease.
Here is what I DO KNOW. They are all only about 2 inches long, except for the "Electric True Blue Johann??" (something like that) who is more like 4 inches long and he runs the tank. Another is a "Peacock mut", another one Im pretty sure is super common, but he was in a tank at the store labeled "Assorted Malawi Cichlids" and he is my baby, (blue with darker blue vertical stripes) - and a solid small yellow with a black strip at the top of his fins (was in the same assorted tank) and the last is a weird shiny green one with some weird pattern on him. I Have pictures to upload(if someone could tell me where to do that, because I need to know what they are) but that is the least of my worries right now.
My BIGGEST PROBLEM: THEY WONT STOP FLASHING/GLANCING off rocks and ornaments. I have tried to make several hiding spots using half broken drinking glasses and fake plants and such, because I know that is important. Im also working with limited funds, so I am aware that I need more airflow, probably a larger filter (right now Im operating a Whisper 20 gal, but only keep about 15 gal of water in the tank) and better decor, maybe live plants, but right now my funds mostly go to anti biotics to get the tank under control. I do normal water changes (25-30% every 2-3 days). But lately Ive been trying so many different disease treatments, that I havent even had a filter in my Whisper for a few weeks (because all the treatments say to take out the carbon).
At first I thought it was ICH. Well Ive treated them twice for ICH with API treatments and they are still constantly flashing and "shaking". The guy at the store said to treat for both INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL PARASITES which I did with the API General Cure pack. Then I thought it was possibly NITRATE/NITRITE BURN so I bought the Ammonia Test kit and even tho the Ammonia has NEVER gone above .25, I was told to deal with the Nitrates as they may be burning the fishes skin. I DID NOT BUY A NITRATE AND NITRITE TEST KIT BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO EXPENSIVE AND NO MATTER WHAT THE TEST RESULTS WERE, I WOULD STILL NEED SOMETHING TO COUNTER ACT THE RESULTS!! So I got something from Seachem called "PRIME" which detoxifies the Nitrate and Nitrite and removes Chlorine, Chloamine, and Ammonia. It seems to work well although THEY ARE STILL GLANCING LIKE CRAZY!!
I found out that the pH and gH shouldve been higher than what I was keeping it at, so I bought Seachems "MALAWI/VICTORIA BUFFER to maintain both the pH and gH.
Ive also tried using the epsom salt/aquarium salt mixture..... and AFTER ALL THAT, I am trying another go-around with API Melafix to treat for bacterial infections.
Wow, Im exhausted just writing all that out. I apologize for the long post but Im afraid that I may be dealing with a more serious disease now. A few days ago, my baby, the blue with darker blue stripes has some sort of blue dot or mark on the top of his head. For all I know, it could be a pigment change, or he might just be growing and its the start of a new stripe, who knows, I sure dont- but Im afraid that its the "HOLE-IN-THE-HEAD" disease (Ive read and studied every disease known to these guys-so its very possible that I am over-reacting and being a hypocondriact, but I just now noticed my peacock looking a bit strange in the head region as well, and needless to say Im just way confused, and probably over-medicating but I cant help but notice these things that could be major "symptoms", but I dont know what they are symptoms of, or what else I could possibly do to help this tank!!!
SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!! ANY AND ALL ADVICE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!! This hobby has become one of the biggest parts of my life, and although I am running three other tanks with success, these cichlids are really the only ones I care about - not to mention all the money Ive spent trying to cure them...
Anyways, for anyone who got confused in the middle of that, or stopped reading (I wouldnt blame you) Im just going to re-count the symptoms, what Ive treated them with... ect.

5 - Malawi Cichlids (all males)
20 gal Upright Tank (only circulating 15 gal)
20 Tetra Whisper Filtration System
Sand/Gravel Mixture for Substrate (i know I need to get crushed coral)

Symptoms-
1. Constant glancing/flashing
2. Frequent "shaking or vibrating"
3 Appetite is on and off
4. Dark spot on head
5. Almost Constant "twitching" - they look very uncomfortable

Treatments(PAST)
1. Super Ich Cure (API)
2. General Cure (internal/external parasites) (API)

Treatments and H2O Chemicals (PRESENT)
1. Tetra Aquasafe Plus water conditioner
2. Stress Coat water conditioner (API)
3. Stress Zyme (live bacteria) (API)
4. Malawi/Victoria Buffer pH & gH (SEACHEM)
5. Prime (SEACHEM)
6. Melafix (API)
7. Epsom salt/Aquarium Salt

PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME!!!!

I ALSO UPLOADED PICTURES OF MY GUYS, IF ANYONE CAN IDENTIFY THEM??

[Barb Okla]

well your first prob is TO MUCH MED FOR PROBS THAT DO NOT EXSIST!! That being said. STOP using any kind of med NOW.. NEVER EVER stop using a media pad in your filter!! NO wonder they are acting off. U have NO way to catch the bad and GOOD bacteria the tank needs. PLACE back in the filter pad!! U need to get the meds out anyway!!
when U do meds, take a DRY filter pad and CUT the top of the pad so U can get the carbon out to use when U med the tank. Shake it out in the trash. NOT a lot in one so U dont' lose much..

Shaking and vibrating and twitching is a male thing they do. They shake/vib to attract a female. A FEMALE does NOT have to be in the tank. they wil shake at another male. Call it male hormones in fish.. (but could be all the meds/salt/no filter pad too!!)

Glancing off of objects is a change in your Ph or to much MEDS/salt in the water that irritate them so they rub/glance off of objects. DO A 5 gal water change NOW AND place in a new/other filter media pad in the filter and get the meds out ASAP.. Most times the carbon in your filter media pads will be fine.

Eating: Normal for them to eat then not. FEED them ONCE a day AND EVERY other day to make sure they wil eat. they wont' starve but eat better on the every other day ONCE a day feeding.. (once a day as in feed them morning OR at nite only!)

U did/are using to MANY water conditioners. ONLY USE ONE!! the prime is best. I am using that one now. IT does more gallons per bottle so it is cheaper to use in the long run..

Salts, USE ONLY ONE and stay with it. The buffer should have SALT in it, so READ what it is and DO NOT use the others when U do a bufffer with salt as a main ingredient..
(ICK does not like SALT, so U do not have ICK in your tanks.) That alone can make them glance off of objects as to much salt in your tank irrates them to the max!!

Some meds can cause bumps to appear but most leave in time.. DO NOT med for what U do not know what it is. U CAN KIL YOUR FISH THIS WAY!! That chart U left in the other posting is fine but KNOW what U are dealing with before U buy a medication..

Sometimes a good water change wil work wonders for your fish. BUT do not go over 1/2 your tanks gallons or U might risk a mini recycle and U do not want that.. In that 20 gal tall? U can do 3 to 8 gal and keep your tank healthy. CLEAN the fitler too every two weeks..

The striped one is a kenyi. MAYbe a male. This one might turn golden later to a male or stay like this and be a female. I see egg spots so probibley a male. Females do not have egg spots this young.
yellow with a black fin is an electric yellow. THAT other one is a monster later on. I do believe it is a Nimbochromis venustus and they get BIG!! so that is not a good choice for your tank.. U would need a 150 LONG gall tank to keep in in a years time. They get to 13+" at adult..

So IF I forgot anything, POST back.. Barb

[Barb Okla]

My other post has limited words installed:

On your water Ph and GH,,, WHERE are they at exactly?? U can keep these guys in 7.6 and up and they wil do fine. GH needs to be 140ppm an up but they wil do fine if lower.. YES they like it more, but if U have probs with keeping your tank Ph and GH higher than what U have, then U can relax some if the Ph and GH is not to out of bounds. Most fish stores wil test your water for U FREE. BUT make sure first, U have NO meds in the tank or high levels of salt before U take a sample in..

U NEED A BIGGER TANK!! I would like to see them in a much bigger tank. A 40 gal breeder would be better for them than this cramped 20 tall. I have one so I know what they are like. CRAMPED..
When these guys get bigger say within 4 to 6 months, they wil need a bigger tank.. A 55 gal is a great sized tank for them.. THEN as U get more cichlids OR they have MORE cichlids, females added in later, U wil need a bigger tank..

IF U like the African cichlids, then U need to KNOW right NOW, U wil need a bigger tank. LONGER is best. A 55 gal is perfect for 8 to 10 adult sized cichlids.. U also need two filters on a 55gal. Emperor 400 are the best unless U do a canister.. U can find great deals on Craigs list in your state/town/city. I saw a whole set up in Okla. city for 100.00 bucks!! U can't beat that. save up and get a bigger tank soon..

http://www.craigslist.org/about/sites

AND no live plants, they wil eat them or tear them up. Plants also do NOT like salt. so they wont' survive in your tank at all..

[fightoffURdemons]

Barb, thanks again. I just posted a reply under "MY CICHLIDS ARE ACTING CRAZY" when you honored my handle. So in hopes to not repeat myself, I will just let you read that post so you know what became of the water change, new filter pad, only using prime and ph buffer.... but basically YOU SAVED MY FISH. THANK YOU!!

I still have a thousand questions, but I dont want to bombard you with all of them, so I will stick to the things I am thinking of buying for my 50-55 gal tank (that I found on craigslist!!!.... which is where I got the 20 gal upright)....

In reference to SEDIMENT?sp? ( you know, the stuff that I use to cover the bottom of the tank, sand/gravel etc....)
Ive heard a lot of talk about using crushed coral. Im not really worried about it affecting the pH in the tank because I am using the pH buffer specifically made for African Lake Malawi Cichlids, and it seems to work well... from what Ive been told they like their pH between 7.8-8.4, so the buffer keeps it in that range. But is the crushed coral good for them? Do I need to make sure that it has been cleaned for freshwater? (is there any salt in the coral, are their two diff kinds???)
Right now, I am using a light dusting of sand and gravel, but I want to start my 55 gal out on the right foot.... so what do you recommend as a good sediment?

Oh, and actually, the tank Im thinking about getting is a 50 gal... Not all of the space is horizontal tho, it kind of just has more room in every direction... Is this a good call? Or should I go for the standard 55 gal long?
If I get the 50 gal, do I still need two emperor filters?? (they are expensive.)
It also says it has a "pump" with it (Im assuming "air pump) and a heater (hood and light) What would you say I need to at least start off the tank.... and can I get away with one filter if its heavy duty?

Last, whats the deal with the canister filter???

Oh wait, one more question-sorry, about the pictures I uploaded, are you referring to the long black and blue one with horizontal black stripes as being the "monster"?
And the other one that is blue with the vertical stripes is the Kenyi?

Thanks for all your help!

[Barb Okla]

Yes I saw your other post. I am so thankfull U read the message I left for U so U would not GET OR USE more medications.. YOUR fish are fine!! IF we all medicated when they colored off or a bump comes up, the medication ppl would be RICHER than what they are now.. Fish meds are getting rediclously HIGH!! gosh!! IT IS A FISH!! But like most of us, it is OUR fish!! So I do understand U wanting them in perfect condition but U can not ahve that all the time with fish in a confined area like a fish tank..

Substrate is what U need to know about. With Africans, I like SAND.. U are wanting to use the crushed coral to help with your GH/Ph. but let me tell U this on crushed coral..

FIRST: IT wil NOT help if your Ph/GH is low to began with.. IT will boost it some, but when U do a water change, it goes right back down to the lower end of your GH..
WHERE is your GH and Ph at right now?? WITHOUT buffers?? U need to know so U know if the crushed coral will help or not..

SECOUND: IT clouds your water BAD!! For like days!! U need a polishing filter to run on the tank and CLEAN it daily to get the fine dust out.. that is an extra 75.00!! Plus the sleeves for it.. 15.00 more.
I dont care how much U wash it, when it goes in the tank, CLOUDY water!! This wont' hurt your fish, but U wont' be able to see them for days.. that filter will help clear it faster.. But U spend more $$.
Sand is not better really but it settles faster.. AND it comes in amazing colors now!! I like the Black tahitian moon sand, also in white now, is just GREAT to use. I didnt' have a lot of cloudy with it.. BUT it is expensive at 25.00 per 20lb bag. U need at lest 3.. The crushed coral is about as much maybe cheaper depending on where U get it at. YES U have to clean it!! AS the coral sits and gets moved, it breaks off and causes dust U could say. THIS is what causes your cloudyness and the GH to increase some and as it breaks down in the tank over time. BUT as I said, once U do a water change, it goes back to a lower Ph/GH for a while then back up untill the next W/change.
The small HOFront/back fitler I use for polishing my water (remove fine particals like sand) and in a sick tank that needs a different filter. I have had this filter for yrs and it stil does a great job! easy to maintine and clean U wil need the sleeves/carbon: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=3597

Gravel is a pain to clean weekly/or by weekly. it is easly cleaned before U place it in the tank with NO cloudyness.. Comes in many sizes, colors and can make your tank look just nice.. With sand, U just remove water and readd.. ONCE a month thou, U need to really clean UNDER any rocks to get all the waste out. Most times U can redeco the tank then to a different arrangment and it keeps the tank interesting.. ( I need to redo my top 75 gal with lots of texas holey rock from other tanks)

Continued on next post:

[Barb Okla]

ON the 50 gal U are wanting. Sure, it wil be fine. BUT U lose a foot of length, from 48 to a 36 length tank. BUT U gain 5" on the width, front to back.. My 75 are 18" front to back so U can build up some nice rock formations with that!! Either tank wil be fine to use. U can ALWAYS get another tank later!! That is called MTS= multiple tank syndrom. I have 15 tanks of veriou sizes. BUT only 5 are running right now.. 125 at my sons with my midas, 2-75 on a double tank stand, 2-29gal. double tank stand. Saves space for sure. My 4- 55 gal are empty and I am trying to sell them as I dont 'need this many tanks right now.

A canister filter is one that sits on the floor or under the cabnet of the tank.. IT is a sealed filter and U only clean it ONCE a month if not every other month. Depends on how your tank is doing and MEDS U have used to your cleaning rutine.

HOB hang on the back are just that, they hang on the back and need more cleaning attention.. With the 50 gal tank U need a GREAT filter on this tank. I know the Emperors 400 are expensive, but U really need this filter on the tank. ON LINE they are 60.00!! In an LFS they are over 100.00.. So let me know if U want to go that route or not. U can get them on sale at http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=14448 U can get email alerts when they go on sale. the filter that comes with it should be fine for a while, but as your fish get bigger and U add more, U are going to need a GREAT filter. but U can get that later on.. they do free shipping with a 49.00 order sometimes too.. so watch for that!! U can save just their alone!

That cichlids is with the yellow one, the one that looks like a giraffe. I think I spelt that right. prob not. LOL.. See here on how big he wil get. Worse than an OSCAR!!
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/n_venustus.php

Sorry this is late, been a busy day for me. I WIL NOT BE HERE UNTIL SAT NITE!! I HAVE TO ATTEND A PERSONAL PROBLEM TIL THEN.. I wil check in the morning if U leave more ?? gone by 1pm..